Why is it that as soon as Boards mag get involved in anything it goes to garbage! I have just read through the recent wave board tests and this shows exactly what effect conglomerating the only independent UK windsurfing media source into the M "borer" circus has had. Can Bseeker/boards/mporia "who ever" publish your advertising percentages for 2010 and compare these with the equipment tests. I have tried out most of these boards on demos this year and there are some blatant dogs in this tests which have been hidden to the public. Giving the starboard "barge" quad (if you can call sticking 4 fins into a mould left over from the evil twin) top marks on get up and go is just plain ridiculous. That monstrosity of a board was the worst thing is I have ever ridden since the Evil Twin. However I expect Starboard to be pretty high up on the advertising list along with JP whose pretty dull bouncy board appears to have done best in the test, surprise surprise. Shame the only mag that appeared to have some balls has gone, sold out to the humdrum that is boards magazine. Best Advice - Never buy a new board. Read the historical reviews in boardseeker, when they were slightly true, or on the forums and buy secondhand. On ebay these days you can get twin fins for £300-400 quid. Avoid any starboard ever made. Multi mass produced in thailand and design by a thai race guy based on scraps of info from McKercher. Why not try a quatro built and designed by full time windsurfer and top ripper Keith Taboul. Or even better grab a custom that are kicking around super cheap these days, based on the best shapes ever made, from quatro, Nelson, D-light, Why or even home brand Moo. Top quality materials and build without the #148596060 number produced stamp which must make handing out the best part of £1500 all the more gut wrenching. It would be good to start a new independent forum site where people can honestly report the good and bad points fo equipment, like they do for mountain biking with out the media monster being able to edit and scrutinise whats going on. A new site would also help clean out the regular butt-munching cling-ons which mag websites forums seem to attract (which I am certainly not). After this rant I will go and hide away for another year until it all builds up again. I'm just dissapointed that a sport I love is being run into the ground by a bunch of money hungry morons with opposing agendas to their normally faithful readers. If I had the time and skill to launch a truly independent website where true windsurfers could congregate to share their findings and love of the sport I would have done it already. Anyway I can forsee a lot of replies telling me how buying secondhand will kill the windsurfing industry in the UK and it will spiral into decline and doom for all windsurfers. These will be mainly from the importers themselves like mr fuller, hackford, murray etc, their minions or unfortunate souls who actually believe the hype. Just think though, why is windsurfing kit changed every year, has it really ever advanced that fast. A good model car can be around for four years before a new model is produced. Half the time the new designs of kit are worse than last year, take the icon or evo for instance. If everybody stood together as united front we could change things for the better. And remember after reading this never underestimate how much some people know about a sport they love and the mysterious and seedy workings which go on within it. We are watching you and awaiting our time for the anti Mporia uprising. http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5915#msg-5915 Thu, 23 May 2013 23:10:03 +0000 Phorum 5.2.19 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,6485#msg-6485 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,6485#msg-6485
You get to windsurf all the time, and your windsurfing is still, at best, mediocre. Just like Jeremy Clarkson. He gets to drive on the track all the time and he is still shite.]]> Dave BOARDSEEKER MAGAZINE Sat, 23 Apr 2011 23:51:08 +0000 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,6481#msg-6481 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,6481#msg-6481 special one BOARDSEEKER MAGAZINE Fri, 22 Apr 2011 19:29:04 +0000 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,6479#msg-6479 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,6479#msg-6479
New board £1500.... Not so classic... Who is buying boards at that money??? Test winner or not..]]> Morris Dancer BOARDSEEKER MAGAZINE Fri, 22 Apr 2011 10:05:44 +0000 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,6478#msg-6478 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,6478#msg-6478
Whether that's you or not you are a legend anyway ...........whoever wrote it it's sooo funny

HAPPY EASTER.]]> I love Bill Dawes BOARDSEEKER MAGAZINE Fri, 22 Apr 2011 09:53:31 +0000 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,6477#msg-6477 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,6477#msg-6477
Ha! Ha! Ha!

Give the tests a break, they are tested by specific people, who like boards that fit there specific style/feel. that's there opinion, maybe you should not read the test write ups as gospel, more opinion, and not everyone has the same opinion..

I tried that *board - once a barge always a barge, no matter how many fins you put in it!]]> bobby BOARDSEEKER MAGAZINE Fri, 22 Apr 2011 09:03:41 +0000 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,6476#msg-6476 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,6476#msg-6476
Regardless however of whether it is or not...

What if my sailing matches my talk, and what if my wallet matches it too?

What's the difference anyway?

I decided for once to contribute to this forum as a reply to big biggyzsmalls' initial thread that you can actually stick some extra fins onto a board that got bad reviews and make it better (unlike what most people would have you think), and ended up agreeing the most with bill smalls (is it the same person?) and timpy.

As for people who are abusive, well .... come and show us what you can do brother and how big your balls are...]]> nkatsoulas BOARDSEEKER MAGAZINE Thu, 21 Apr 2011 23:14:28 +0000 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,6475#msg-6475 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,6475#msg-6475 -------------------------------------------------------
> Hi all,
>
> truth is Cash talks -
>
> your all muppets anyway and wouldn't know a good
> board if it bit you on the arse
>
> so shut up and let your sailing do the talking
> .....
>
> If you don't like the tests then don't read them.
>
> The brands producing good equipment are happy
> enough to let you test their kit prior to purchase
> and even some producing shit kit are stupid enough
> to do likewise, hey Tushingham !! Thing is you
> muppets love Tushingham as they are cheap and
> because you are shit at windsurfing you think they
> are ok, which is fine by me...
>
> Don't come on here bigging your self up unless
> your sailing matches your talk... so stop typing
> losers !!!

If indeed this is actually Bill Dawes posting, you clearly have a lot of pent up anger at all us "muppets". I feel even happier giving up on Boards magazine so long ago while you were editing, a dire publication.

All off topic somewhat, sorry.

To be fair you could search through any windsurf forum and there seems to be a cycle of complaints about testing every few months when someone gets a board they dont like on the advice of a test...

There is so much difference in how all of us sail that you would be a fool to read too deeply into the reviews. Try them out, talk to your friends and see what works with different fins before you slap down your latest paycheck.

Yeah they may all come out the same factory, but the designs and shapes evolve elsewhere, some will work some wont.

At the end of the day more time on the water will do a lot more for your sailing than a new board. But if you have the spare cash then indulge and share your experience.]]> timpy BOARDSEEKER MAGAZINE Thu, 21 Apr 2011 18:14:53 +0000 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,6474#msg-6474 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,6474#msg-6474 Forums aren't the place for masturbation, this is an intelligent and informed discussion
hope you had a tissue handy to wipe down your keyboard]]> bill smalls BOARDSEEKER MAGAZINE Thu, 21 Apr 2011 16:09:58 +0000 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,6473#msg-6473 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,6473#msg-6473
truth is Cash talks -

your all muppets anyway and wouldn't know a good board if it bit you on the arse

so shut up and let your sailing do the talking .....

If you don't like the tests then don't read them.

The brands producing good equipment are happy enough to let you test their kit prior to purchase and even some producing shit kit are stupid enough to do likewise, hey Tushingham !! Thing is you muppets love Tushingham as they are cheap and because you are shit at windsurfing you think they are ok, which is fine by me...

Don't come on here bigging your self up unless your sailing matches your talk... so stop typing losers !!!]]> BILL DAWES BOARDSEEKER MAGAZINE Thu, 21 Apr 2011 14:36:30 +0000 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,6472#msg-6472 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,6472#msg-6472
It is quite funny to read the whole thread because windsurfing design is still so unscientific, that anything could work. I therefore tend to agree more with the opinion that everybody is different and we all have different styles of sailing; we therefore are unlikely to all like the same boards. The fact that multi-fin boards are so setup critical just adds to the individual experience (mastfoot placement, front/back fins placement etc).

To prove my point I will tell you what I did; I bought a Starboard Evil Twin 87 Wood when on offer about 15 months ago. Sailed it with the standard fins twice; what a dog of a board I thought. I felt cheated for having paid £650. So I went ahead and tried all I could to remedy the situation; bought a pair of 17.5 cm Maui Ultra fins (X-Twins) and .... wow. It was a different beast altogether. Planed sooner, rode better, and turned amazing on a wave. A couple of my mates tried it and liked a lot too.

Then this year I thought I'd sell it and replace it with a RRD Quad. Put the board up for sale on multiple websites (including Boardseeker), not even one phone call (the board was well priced, mint and offered a second set of fins in the package).

So I went ahead and converted it to a Quad at Bluechip for £170. Wrote an email to Ola Helenius first with regards to where I should place the front fins and .... well look at the photo.
Now the board is just unbelievable. The feeling I get sailing it is like reading the write-up of the best quad on the last waveboard test. And i would be very happy to let anyone have a go and give me their opinion, please feel free to contact me.

It just proves that you can actually stick an extra pair of fins on an old Starboard Evil Twin and really make it work. I can't say anything about the new Starboard Quads, but I can definitely tell you that the one I've got is very nice.

Regards

Nick]]> nkatsoulas BOARDSEEKER MAGAZINE Thu, 21 Apr 2011 09:49:20 +0000 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,6470#msg-6470 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,6470#msg-6470
and I think Carlos is now on board with SB...



Sauron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Heard rumours that even B. Dunkerbeck is not
> satisfied with ANY of starboard's waveboards.
> Heard these rumours more than once and from more
> than one person.
>
> You can say that rumours are just rumours but in
> every rumour there is a bit of truth and if Dunki
> is not satisfied it speaks for itself...]]> SpunkyDork BOARDSEEKER MAGAZINE Thu, 21 Apr 2011 08:44:15 +0000 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5945#msg-5945 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5945#msg-5945 -------------------------------------------------------
> I'm Clueless!! OPEN your eyes kook, did I say
> quatro production boards weren't produced at
> Cobra, No! I said that they were designed by KT
> and with riders like Levi living near or even in
> Haiku where they are designed, putting in some R &
> D.
>
> Secondly it's no surprise to anybody that the
> CLONES have given bad test results to Starboard in
> the past. THAT is the point, numb nuts that I am
> making. It used to be independent.
>
> Now it's a sell out due to pressure back from the
> distributors who I am reliably informed by one of
> them, get to see all the kit reviews for their own
> comments before they are released. If they don't
> like it, well what would you do as leverage if it
> was your business??
>
> Why no tests for the other missing brands? Because
> they don't advertise. Exactly. Naish are
> unfortunate enough to keep advertising even though
> everybody knows their boards are suited more to
> Robby Naish at Hookipa than chop botherers at
> Shoreham. But I can bet you they aren't happy with
> the results either. Why don't we ask the importers
> to comment. Get it out in the open.
>
> Douche....yeh french for shower, isn't
> RETARD!!!!!!!!!! also French.


HAHa! .... Nice ....

Actually, You said boards "BUILT by KT" - big difference.

And, in fact the in the 85l test just published, the Evo IQ got a pretty unflattering test result.

Yep ... clueless...

[www.urbandictionary.com]]]> OnFire BOARDSEEKER MAGAZINE Tue, 14 Dec 2010 20:34:38 +0000 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5935#msg-5935 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5935#msg-5935 rocket ronnie BOARDSEEKER MAGAZINE Mon, 13 Dec 2010 18:06:24 +0000 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5933#msg-5933 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5933#msg-5933 anon BOARDSEEKER MAGAZINE Sat, 11 Dec 2010 23:34:08 +0000 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5931#msg-5931 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5931#msg-5931
I'd have thought colonic irrigator for sure

or maybe a$%holle irittator ;-)

LOL
T]]> Tracey BOARDSEEKER MAGAZINE Sat, 11 Dec 2010 10:52:45 +0000 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5930#msg-5930 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5930#msg-5930 Good description.]]> Sharon BOARDSEEKER MAGAZINE Sat, 11 Dec 2010 00:29:42 +0000 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5927#msg-5927 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5927#msg-5927
Secondly it's no surprise to anybody that the CLONES have given bad test results to Starboard in the past. THAT is the point, numb nuts that I am making. It used to be independent.

Now it's a sell out due to pressure back from the distributors who I am reliably informed by one of them, get to see all the kit reviews for their own comments before they are released. If they don't like it, well what would you do as leverage if it was your business??

Why no tests for the other missing brands? Because they don't advertise. Exactly. Naish are unfortunate enough to keep advertising even though everybody knows their boards are suited more to Robby Naish at Hookipa than chop botherers at Shoreham. But I can bet you they aren't happy with the results either. Why don't we ask the importers to comment. Get it out in the open.

Douche....yeh french for shower, isn't RETARD!!!!!!!!!! also French.]]> biggyzsmalls BOARDSEEKER MAGAZINE Fri, 10 Dec 2010 15:54:43 +0000 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5926#msg-5926 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5926#msg-5926 Heard these rumours more than once and from more than one person.

You can say that rumours are just rumours but in every rumour there is a bit of truth and if Dunki is not satisfied it speaks for itself...]]> Sauron BOARDSEEKER MAGAZINE Fri, 10 Dec 2010 10:56:13 +0000 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5925#msg-5925 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5925#msg-5925
(and all the others)

I see you have a bit of a chip pn your shoulder and live in cloud cuckoo land.

I have been a big fan of boardseeker - and i used to like boards before it became the dave white monthly. It's still good but i can only take 10 or so pages before i nod off.

OK- back on point. It's great to be unbiased and noble - but that does not pay the bills - hats off to Ade for subbing BS for so long - and hats off to the old boards management for losing so much money for so long to bring geeky windsurfers something to read.

The bottom line is that without products sold / advertising spend etc etc we have no industry- without that no products to go sailing on - you want that ??

Yes - go ahead and buy secondhand gear - im sure it's fine just dont stop folks getting new stuff or 1) there will be no more windsurfing gear made and 2) you wont have any used kit to buy.

Try reading the naish board test - they advertise and it got a slating (dam right too imho)

Dunno what your agenda with starboard is - jealous of their success - think they are to corporate ?

please pull yourself together and do some training so you are fit for it when the wind comes back.

RGDS
HF]]> happy feet BOARDSEEKER MAGAZINE Fri, 10 Dec 2010 10:46:48 +0000 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5924#msg-5924 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5924#msg-5924 -------------------------------------------------------
> Why is it that as soon as Boards mag get involved
> in anything it goes to garbage!

>
> I have tried out most of these boards on demos
> this year and there are some blatant dogs in this
> tests which have been hidden to the public.
>
> Giving the starboard "barge" quad (if you can call
> sticking 4 fins into a mould left over from the
> evil twin) top marks on get up and go is just
> plain ridiculous. That monstrosity of a board was
> the worst thing is I have ever ridden since the
> Evil Twin.
>
> However I expect Starboard to be pretty high up on
> the advertising list along with JP whose pretty
> dull bouncy board appears to have done best in the
> test, surprise surprise.

>

> Avoid any starboard ever
> made. Multi mass produced in thailand and design
> by a thai race guy based on scraps of info from
> McKercher.
>
> Why not try a quatro built and designed by full
> time windsurfer and top ripper Keith Taboul.
>
> Or even better grab a custom that are kicking
> around super cheap these days, based on the best
> shapes ever made, from quatro, Nelson, D-light,
> Why or even home brand Moo. Top quality materials
> and build without the #148596060 number produced
> stamp which must make handing out the best part of
> £1500 all the more gut wrenching.
>

Dude, you are obviously F**ing clueless!

It's fine to disagree with test results but you REALLY have no-clue!

Do you know that your precious Quatro is made in the same factory as the Starboard?

At least get something straight - Thel CLones have given bad reviews to Starboard & other advertisers many times before.

.... what a douche]]> OnFire BOARDSEEKER MAGAZINE Thu, 09 Dec 2010 22:43:54 +0000 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5923#msg-5923 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5923#msg-5923
I treat both test as submissions to this forum as they are: opinions. The better argued and the least paradoxal, the more credible.]]> tho_vis BOARDSEEKER MAGAZINE Thu, 09 Dec 2010 21:45:23 +0000 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5922#msg-5922 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5922#msg-5922 we all like to be paranoid of 'the man'
it helps us to feel individual and separate from the machine
and yes, i agree that money from advertisers cannot be ignored but its worth remembering that everyone IS different, we all like different things,
whats to say that just because you found a board not to your liking that the combined wisdom of some of the better sailors in the country is wrong? maybe you just sail with a particularly kooky style?
for example:- the evil twin - slated from its conception,
i had a go on one several months back and found that it suited my style, it had JP fins on which might have changed things a little but i was surprised. i actually liked it!?
tests are fine and need to be taken with a pinch of whatever you like, but truthfully you are not going to know what suits you unless you try it
i would hope that Adrian and the clones have enough self respect to not bow to the pressures of the money men to make their findings and if they feel they have to; be strong enough to get out
Adrian seems a good guy, it would be a shame to think he has become a marionette of the machine]]> randall strauss BOARDSEEKER MAGAZINE Thu, 09 Dec 2010 17:52:47 +0000 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5921#msg-5921 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5921#msg-5921 Sauron BOARDSEEKER MAGAZINE Thu, 09 Dec 2010 14:03:26 +0000 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5920#msg-5920 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5920#msg-5920
I'm the Ad Manager at BOARDS an BOARDSEEKER and I can honestly say that the finding of the boards are in no way related to ad spend. What we test is and we hold our hand up to that but just becasue a product is in the test does not mean that it will recieve a good test. Adrian and the CLones put a lot of work into testing the equipment and they also have the board and sail hanling skills to push these products to their limits. Their experience quickly finds any problem areas and Adrian works hard to get to the bottom of anything he finds.

Its really sad with the work that goes into these tests that you all have such perceptions of the testing. Boardseeker hasn't sold out at all its merely moved ownership allowing Adrian to spen al lhis time on testing, to cover more products in more depth and not be wrapped up i nthe general runnng of the site. Its supposed to have been an improvement not a sell out.

You are free to comment on your findings with the boards. This is a great opportunity to give even more informatio nfrom a broader base of sailing standards and experiences. We are all for it. Crack on and I loo kforward to reading your actual thoughts on the boards tested rather than your perception of the testing process. User generated content is great.

Thanks

Fred]]> Fredir95 BOARDSEEKER MAGAZINE Thu, 09 Dec 2010 10:47:33 +0000 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5919#msg-5919 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5919#msg-5919 Colinz BOARDSEEKER MAGAZINE Wed, 08 Dec 2010 19:40:09 +0000 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5918#msg-5918 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5918#msg-5918 www.windsurf.me.uk]]]> Thirsty BOARDSEEKER MAGAZINE Wed, 08 Dec 2010 18:45:09 +0000 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5916#msg-5916 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5916#msg-5916
The whole secondhand market debate is balls, as it's always been that way as long as I've windsurfed. There's always the "all the gear, no idea, but loads of cash" crowd, pros and ex-hire centre board shops like Boardwise and RoHo so the market will always be flooded with second hand kit...the sausage machine just keeps on churning. Without one end you can't have the other, it's a scientific fact!

Anyway, it's a pity Boardseeker sold out, I just wish I had the know how to set up your independent forum idea...sounds good.]]> jenksruss BOARDSEEKER MAGAZINE Wed, 08 Dec 2010 14:51:07 +0000 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5915#msg-5915 http://forums.boardseekermag.com/read.php?2,5915,5915#msg-5915
I have just read through the recent wave board tests and this shows exactly what effect conglomerating the only independent UK windsurfing media source into the M "borer" circus has had.

Can Bseeker/boards/mporia "who ever" publish your advertising percentages for 2010 and compare these with the equipment tests.

I have tried out most of these boards on demos this year and there are some blatant dogs in this tests which have been hidden to the public.

Giving the starboard "barge" quad (if you can call sticking 4 fins into a mould left over from the evil twin) top marks on get up and go is just plain ridiculous. That monstrosity of a board was the worst thing is I have ever ridden since the Evil Twin.

However I expect Starboard to be pretty high up on the advertising list along with JP whose pretty dull bouncy board appears to have done best in the test, surprise surprise.


Shame the only mag that appeared to have some balls has gone, sold out to the humdrum that is boards magazine.


Best Advice - Never buy a new board. Read the historical reviews in boardseeker, when they were slightly true, or on the forums and buy secondhand. On ebay these days you can get twin fins for £300-400 quid. Avoid any starboard ever made. Multi mass produced in thailand and design by a thai race guy based on scraps of info from McKercher.

Why not try a quatro built and designed by full time windsurfer and top ripper Keith Taboul.

Or even better grab a custom that are kicking around super cheap these days, based on the best shapes ever made, from quatro, Nelson, D-light, Why or even home brand Moo. Top quality materials and build without the #148596060 number produced stamp which must make handing out the best part of £1500 all the more gut wrenching.

It would be good to start a new independent forum site where people can honestly report the good and bad points fo equipment, like they do for mountain biking with out the media monster being able to edit and scrutinise whats going on.
A new site would also help clean out the regular butt-munching cling-ons which mag websites forums seem to attract (which I am certainly not). After this rant I will go and hide away for another year until it all builds up again.

I'm just dissapointed that a sport I love is being run into the ground by a bunch of money hungry morons with opposing agendas to their normally faithful readers. If I had the time and skill to launch a truly independent website where true windsurfers could congregate to share their findings and love of the sport I would have done it already.

Anyway I can forsee a lot of replies telling me how buying secondhand will kill the windsurfing industry in the UK and it will spiral into decline and doom for all windsurfers. These will be mainly from the importers themselves like mr fuller, hackford, murray etc, their minions or unfortunate souls who actually believe the hype.

Just think though, why is windsurfing kit changed every year, has it really ever advanced that fast. A good model car can be around for four years before a new model is produced. Half the time the new designs of kit are worse than last year, take the icon or evo for instance. If everybody stood together as united front we could change things for the better.

And remember after reading this never underestimate how much some people know about a sport they love and the mysterious and seedy workings which go on within it.

We are watching you and awaiting our time for the anti Mporia uprising.]]> biggyzsmalls BOARDSEEKER MAGAZINE Wed, 08 Dec 2010 14:10:14 +0000