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Hot Ice
5.3 Power Wave Sail Test Men or Boys ?
25 July '09 | 2:00pm
At a time when your competitors are rebuilding their test teams and hand you a golden opportunity to be the undisputed number one UK test team you produce your poorest test.

Obviously the life of a test editor is not easy and may explain why the test editors in the other two UK windsurfing publications have walked away from it earlier this year.

Some people say professionals deliver on time and amateurs make excuses. Maybe it’s better to take the harder decision not to go to print sometimes.

Besides this test being ridiculously late I have a couple of other concerns.

It’s a power test so why leave out the Maui Sails Global power wave sail ? Or for that matter the Naish Force used by a living legend of the sport. Robbie’s signature power wave sail The Force perfectly matches his amazing strength and awesome wave riding and you don’t include it in your power test ? Instead you include a sail like the Tushingham Rock. While the Rock is an excellent all round wave sail it is not designed specifically for power ? Was the Tushingham handy just to make up the numbers ?

Using testers mostly between 83 kgs and a mere 70 kgs it’s little wonder they felt some of the sails were backhanded when well powered up. They simply don’t have the weight or strength to get the best out of power sails or to test them properly. The only way open to you is to guess how the sails would perform for a much heavier sailor and that can lead to drawing the wrong conclusions.

Your comments on the Gaastra Poison 5.4 wave sail being back handed when well powered up is a case in point. I use this sail, including two months sailing it in the Canaries this winter and have never felt it was back handed even when very powered up. It is an absolutely superb wave / bump and jump sail for heavier sailors.

If you are going to have a meaningful test of power sails then stick to power sails, include more power sails used by top power wave sailors, and at the very least have a couple of heavy weight testers.

Don’t let the excellent initial promise you showed for testing slip.
adrian@boardseeker
Re: 5.3 Power Wave Sail Test Men or Boys ?
25 July '09 | 2:46pm
Firstly, I would be interested to know which magazine you think has done a better 5.3m test - I dont see one out there that ticks all the boxes that you are suggesting...maybe there is a reason for this ie its not practical?

With regard to being late, I broke my ankle this year (whilst testing the 4.7m sails) which put me out of wave sailing for 5 months and unable to complete this test in time. Whilst the Clones are a great help, I refuse to write test reports on equipment that I haven't even used. On the outside, you might judge this lateness as the 'difference between professional and amateur', but I believe that it was a professional decision to maintain our integrity and release the test late rather than publish a 'rush job' that was half made up.

You say, we should have considered not releasing the test at all because of the lateness....I think that is rubbish. The beauty of online is that everything is archived and you might be surprised to know that more than 50% of people in the UK buy clearance and second hand equipment rather than brand new up-to-date. Therefore the test is still extremely relevant to them. Also whilst all the brands are starting to sing and dance about their new 2010 sails, reality is that you wont actually be able to buy many of them for a good few months yet.

With regard to which brands are included and which arent....We simply couldn't get sails from Naish (other than John Skyes Boxer 4.7m which was in our 4.7 test). With regard to Maui Sails, all brands are invited to submit kit (including Maui Sails). It is their decision not to supply. if it was a more popular brand, we may have considered buying or borrowing a sail to ensure it was included, but as it took us 22 hours per product last year to test, we quite honestly couldnt justify the time for a brand that chooses not to support our magazine at this stage and doesn't really sell many sails in the UK. If you are keen to see them included, why dont you e-mail them and tell them...It might persuade them to 'pull their finger out'!

Tushingham were included because they are the number one selling brand in the UK. it would have been a bit of an omission not to have included them wouldn't it? They only do one wave sail - so why shouldn't it be included in this test?

With regard to heavy weight testers, we do use heavyweight Clones - they just arent on the water every single day like our main group. We had 2 heavyweights (over 95kg) try all the sails in this group. Interestingly enough, the conclusions they found for the sails (and the factors we score in the test) were all pretty much identical.

I'm glad you like the Poison. I think if you re-read the test, you will see that it came out with a great report. The benefit that we have over you is that we compare it against other sails and compared to other sails in this group, it was 'more backhanded' when well powered up. If it wasn't, why would they produce the Manic..?

Anyway, I do take your comments on board. Our 2010 tests will be out much quicker - we are already making good progress with our 4.7m test and with this weeks forecast looking so good, hope to get a lot completed this week.

Thanks,

Adrian



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 25/07/2009 | 2:49pm by admin.
Hot Ice
Re: 5.3 Power Wave Sail Test Men or Boys ?
22 August '09 | 11:34am
Boards mag released their wave sail test in October 2008 for the 2009 wave sails long before your test. In my view Boards mag did a far superior test that by the way included Maui sails. They also had a very experienced UK sail designer who is also a competent wave sailor in their test team.

The lateness of your wave sail test due to an injury you sustained could be seen as a lack of flexibility and a failure to delegate and trust others opinions. I imagine importers supplied you wave sails to bring them to the attention of potential customers and help generate sales for the shops that stock their wave sails. This is especially important for the Christmas market. I am sure the sails were not supplied to generate interest for the discount market at the end of the season.

Your comments on your sail selection criteria are revealing. It was you that decided it would be a power test. Is the Tushingham specifically designed as a power sail? No, it is an excellent all round popular sail but that was not the test criteria. There are plenty of power sails on the market that you could have included and it undermines the power test by substituting them for all round wave sails. The Global Maui wave sail is clearly a power sail but because they do not support your magazine (and you think that’s a good reason not to test a sail ?), didn’t supply a sail (how hard did you try to get one ?) and in your opinion are not popular you exclude their sail. “pull their finger out” is another interesting comment you made and I find it a strange way to encourage support for your mag. Maybe time to reflect why some sail manufactures / importers do not supply their sails to you for testing.

You use the word integrity and in that light I would ask you to consider your off water comments on the Tushingham Rock versus the Gaastra Poison. Plenty to say about the build quality of the Rock but very little about the Poison. Even though the Poison has several of the build qualities you mentioned on the Rock including many more other excellent build qualities on the Poison that again you didn’t mention.

I am amazed that your 95 kg clones came to the same conclusions as your light weight clones. Significant differences in weights of sailors has a profound effect on sails performance.
Then your rather naive comment why Gaastra make the Manic is the final nail in the coffin that makes me seriously question your ability to test sails.

Of course having pictures of clones wearing what looks like black painted gold fish bowls on their heads only further confirms any doubts I may have had. At least the pictures are hilarious to look at and rather comical. I always enjoy a good laugh.
hippie
Re: 5.3 Power Wave Sail Test Men or Boys ?
22 August '09 | 1:54pm
Hot ice, you are one angry person, where is the love, its just a test xx
adrian@boardseeker
Re: 5.3 Power Wave Sail Test Men or Boys ?
22 August '09 | 3:07pm
Hot Ice - I am not going to raise issue with any of your points, because it sounds like you have a separate agenda going on here.

You know who I am (and I know who you are) so pick up the phone and have a chat if you want to discuss this further.

Who knows, maybe you need some help with advertising to clear those Gaastra's and Maui Sails that you over stocked on?! ;-)

Adrian
Yup Outa Dat
Re: 5.3 Power Wave Sail Test Men or Boys ?
22 August '09 | 5:32pm
Howye now,

Just as regards to BOARDS wave sail test, while you may say it was a superior test I beg to differ. I was in OTC on holidays when the boards test team were doing their wave sail test, and although they do have some sail designers who know what their talking about, some of the team bluff their way through poor excuses for problems with the gear they're testing.

More so though, the worst thing I saw was they way their actual publication differed from their honest opinion. They were testing a new hugely hyped sail, every single person on the team said they hated the sail and that it was possibly the worst sail they had tested in years, but when the article came out they had little critisism for the sail. So don't believe what you read!

And thats my 2 cents winking smiley
vag
Re: 5.3 Power Wave Sail Test Men or Boys ?
22 August '09 | 10:03pm
About the wave equipment tests in UK printed magazines, I have to say that they are great apart the fact that in most cases during the test the closest wave is situated at least 1000 km away from the test spot.
So when the reviews are published my tip is to just have a look in the opening photo of the test. If you don’t see a decent wave there, then don’t bother to read the test. It is like reading an enduro motorbike test where the motorbikes tested only in asphalt roads.
I don’t know if boardseeker reviews are objective or not, but for sure the guys here have make the effort to bring the equipment into the sea where there are and some decent waves also
pete
Re: 5.3 Power Wave Sail Test Men or Boys ?
23 August '09 | 8:26am
Man, give the guy a break, he broke his ankle. No doubt he would have been laid into if the test came out on time, he had written it but not sailed the gear. I bought a sail after the test. The shop didn't have 2010 sails for ages, plus they also hadn't been able to get naish for a long while despitre wanting to, so the test was very relevent. I needed a sail, the shop had them in stock plus I didn't know which. Oards mag the test was in, so couldn't get hold of it anyway.
Mathias
Re: 5.3 Power Wave Sail Test Men or Boys ?
23 August '09 | 7:25pm
@ hot Ice: Shut up you f***king retard. Boardseeker is probably the best online mag ever!!! I don't want to miss it. I like their way of testing new equipment and I think they are doing a great job there. I think nobody can afford to buy all power wave sails that are on the market.
Look, the guys from boardseeker provide us with valuable information and the best thing: it's completely for free. I met Adrian in Ireland once and I know that he is a really friendly, down to earth guy. I think you're just one of those guys who sit in front of their Pcs not knowing what to do with themselves, writing crap on forums. You should rather go out and improve your windsurfing, fatty.

@Adrian: Don't give a **** on Hot Ice. Keep up the good work and enjoy your sessions in Rhosneighr.

Mathias
drm
Re: 5.3 Power Wave Sail Test Men or Boys ?
24 August '09 | 12:46pm
Well, I also think that Hot Ice is a bit harsh here (but what he is being called by one person in this thread is more than harsh)... not easy to make a proper test of windsurfing gear these days.

But, having read loads (to many) of tests through the years I must say that Boardseeker are the best I have seen and really make use of being on the web as well. I really like reading them.

Personally, I did not mind the FSW and powerwave tests being late that much (although, earlier when gear is new is nicer). There is to much "production year" focus in this business anyway. But I can sure appreciate that the brands/advertisers enjoy seeing their latest gear being displayed and, hopefully, recieving a good result earlier in the season.

Just a note - I am a Poision sailor myself (5.8, though) and on the sessions I've had with the sail I actually find that the sail works better more toward medium/max setting, with a fair bit of downhaul tension and clearly more outhaul tension. Last time out, I pulled the outhaul a fair bit since the wind picked up significantly, and to my surprise this setting was very nice even when the wind backed down again. I really made the sail more balanced and the slight forward pull I felt a bit up in the sail was gone.

You write in your test "We did however find it worked best towards the minimum settings (outhaul and downhaul), where it felt light in the hands, nicely balanced and with good power. Once you start applying more downhaul (for stronger winds), the pull seems to shift back in the sail and it wasn’t quite so sweet."

So, there are always different opinions on gear, and we all have personal preferences. Besides that I do not experience the Posion to be that back-handed in more wind, I agree with the test and what you write about it. And, it is a test, no more, and no less.

Compared with my previous Icons, I certainly apply more downhaul and outhaul tension on the Poision.

Finally, aren't many tests sometimes being a bit to concerned about wave-sails not being "back-handed"? In some situations, like during the bottom turn, a bit of back-hand drive might actually be desired, or?

Oooops, this came out a bit long, sorry. But I really look forward to future Boardseeker tests!
craigm
Re: 5.3 Power Wave Sail Test Men or Boys ?
25 August '09 | 1:01am
If this Hot Ice guy in involved (as it seems) in the windsurfing trade, then this was a pretty unprofessional thing to write.

Indeed, he just comes across as a very angry man who wants to rant a bit.

If Adrian was as unprofessional as Hot Ice was, he'd have outed him and his business (to let us know who to avoid buying from).

But he didn't, so gets the moral high ground on this one.

Plus given the problems that "other" mags got in to in terms of their reputations when it was discovered that they were utterly making stuff up, or were required to only give perfect reviews in order to keep their exclusivity over being able to review certain brands, I think Adrian was wise to wait until he could sail the kit himself before issuing the review.

I am sure he is coming under mega pressure from the brand importers to plug their kit in his reviews, but so far he seems to be charting a very factual and unbaised course, so criticism like this seems a bit OTT.
adrian@boardseeker
Re: 5.3 Power Wave Sail Test Men or Boys ?
25 August '09 | 10:13am
Thanks for the good words guys.

Luckily the wind has been cranking at Rhosneigr for the past few weeks, so we have been making good progress with the 010 tests and should be able to release them in a more timely fashion this year!

We are pretty close to finishing our 4.2 & 4.7 test, which has 11 sails in there.

Gaastra Manic
Naish Session
North Ego
North Ice
NP Combat
NP Fly
Severne Blade
Simmer Icon
Gun Steel
Goya Eclipse
Goya Guru

We are also working on 5.3 power waves, 75 all-round wave boards and 85 multi-fin waves. Fingers crossed that the wind keeps blowing!

Adrian
busted
Re: 5.3 Power Wave Sail Test Men or Boys ?
27 August '09 | 3:04pm
Hot Ice is a bodyboarder.
Follow the link and scroll down to learn more...
[www.bbc.co.uk]
Hot Ice
Re: 5.3 Power Wave Sail Test Men or Boys ?
2 September '09 | 11:18am
I apologise for some of my remarks that on reflection were OTT.

I hope that once your shock, anger and perhaps resentment subside you may accept a few of my comments.

Thanks for giving me the chance to air my views on your forum.
Steve
Re: 5.3 Power Wave Sail Test Men or Boys ?
3 September '09 | 9:18am
adrian@boardseeker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for the good words guys.
>
> Luckily the wind has been cranking at Rhosneigr
> for the past few weeks, so we have been making
> good progress with the 010 tests and should be
> able to release them in a more timely fashion this
> year!
>
> We are pretty close to finishing our 4.2 & 4.7
> test, which has 11 sails in there.
>
> Gaastra Manic
> Naish Session
> North Ego
> North Ice
> NP Combat
> NP Fly
> Severne Blade
> Simmer Icon
> Gun Steel
> Goya Eclipse
> Goya Guru
>
> We are also working on 5.3 power waves, 75
> all-round wave boards and 85 multi-fin waves.
> Fingers crossed that the wind keeps blowing!
>
> Adrian


Hiya Adrian - i think the vast majority of people think the Boardseeker tests are the most honest and innovative out there - so pls keep it up!

Quick question - will the test(s) described above be for "2010" sail ranges?
Any idea of publication date?

(cos im thinking about buying a 2010 Simmer Icon / MissionX)

Cheers,
Steve
adrian@boardseeker
Re: 5.3 Power Wave Sail Test Men or Boys ?
3 September '09 | 9:50am
Hi Steve, yes those are all 2010 sails. We need one more underpowered 4.7 day to finish it off, so hoping for release in the next 2-3 weeks.

Would say that the test from last year on the 2009 sails will give you a fair idea of what those 2 simmer sails are like. We have the new Icon, which is subtly different to 2009, but nothing major and still a top choice as an all-round wave sail suitable for all wave conditions. It feels like it pulls from slightly further forward than last years with perhaps a slightly sharper response, but really not much difference to overall performance, just a tweak.

We dont have the 2010 Mission, but as I understand it, there aren't any massive changes since 2009, so last years test should give you a good indication.

Good luck!

Adrian
windsurfdude
Re: 5.3 Power Wave Sail Test Men or Boys ?
3 September '09 | 7:49pm
Hey adrian,
Quick question, btw ive seen you testing all the new sails up at rhossy and i must say the testing is really amazing. Sails being tested where i want to use them is far different from them being tested in hawaii where im likely never to use the sail!
I love the colours on the new 010 norths, and see you have tested both the ego and the ice. Im hoping for a quiver of norths but im not sure which range to go for, do you think for general rhossy conditions:
#cross shore/cross on windy rhosneigr. 20knots<,
#llandudno west shore 15-20knots for abit of choppy sailing/trying abit of flat water freestyle.
#and gwithian 15knots cross/cross off wave riding
Im really confused as to which range to go for? Any advice?
I am running on north rdm masts at the moment so im guessing the duke wont really work so well with a skinny...
Also north ice HD is it worth it?!
thanks already, and keep up the real good work.
wanaloop
scott
Re: 5.3 Power Wave Sail Test Men or Boys ?
4 September '09 | 3:02pm
Is hot ice Anton from Sliders???

Cheers
Scott
tripper
Re: 5.3 Power Wave Sail Test Men or Boys ?
4 September '09 | 7:18pm
Nope, definitely not Anton!! way off the mark.
Steve
Re: 5.3 Power Wave Sail Test Men or Boys ?
7 September '09 | 12:38pm
Cheers Adrian - thanks for the feedback.
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